When Boxing Writers Talk: David P. Greisman And Tim Starks On Alfredo Angulo’s Contract Demands, Chad Dawson Vs. Jean Pascal, Blondie And More

From time to time BoxingScene’s David P. Greisman and myself gchat one another. Sometimes we talk about boxing, even. Sometimes, I publish what we say. Monday evening, between prepping for our trip to Montreal, we had some talking to do about the things in the headline, plus the likes of Kermit Cintron, Andre Ward and animated Don Bluth films.

me: When DO boxing writers talk?

David: When don’t boxing writers talk?

me: A few minutes ago, we weren’t.

David: And we are clearly the only boxing writers who matter. So yes, you’re right.

me: Take THAT, dead A.J. Liebling!

David: The Sweet Science? Meet the Mean Girls.

me: So, I should know this, because I know how you scored Cloud-Johnson, but how’d you score Alexander-Kotelnik?

David: I haven’t. I didn’t score it because I was frantically searching for a way to watch Anderson Silva vs. Chael Sonnen.

I plan on bringing the DVD of the fight for our long, long, long bus ride.

Maybe if I watch it 14 times, I’ll come up with 14 different scores.

me: When this publishes, we will be right in the middle of our long, long bus ride.

David: I was okay with your 114-114 for Cloud-Johnson. Not my score, but I had enough close rounds (two) marked to make it 114-114 if I switched them to Johnson.

The real sad thing about these two really good fights?

That youth prevails.

Cloud will be pushed toward the next fight. Had this been a draw, we’d have gotten a rematch.

me: Dude, that’s not sad. Look at us now, being better than A.J. Liebling.

David: Ditto Alexander, who will face Bradley. We all want to see that, of course.

But what happens to Kotelnik now?

me: That’s a fair question.

David: These are the benefits of youth. And having the marketing angle on your side.

me: Was it you who suggested a Maidana rematch? I think that sounds good. Once Khan inevitably doesn’t fight Maidana, Maidana’s going to need a dance partner.

And Maidana gets Kotelnik back on HBO.

David: That’d be a great rematch. But HBO isn’t mandating Maidana-Kotelnik 2 the way it’s calling for Sergio Martinez-Paul Williams 2.

Meanwhile, Alfredo Angulo turns down $750,000 (!) and asks for…

Cue Dr. Evil.




me: Which, by the way, is an example of HBO doing something right with its cash — Williams-Martinez II.

David: Exception to the rule.

me: I’ve not calculated the overall percentage of it. I just said it was an example. Screw you, I hate you.

Seriously, what’s wrong with Angulo?

David: How much did he get paid again for one round of work against Joachim Alcine?

me: I get that he feels all entitled and stuff (assuming Steve Kim’s right in his reporting on that demand of his) but come on.

Kim said he got $350,000 for Alcine.

Is there a chance Angulo deliberately priced himself out of a Martinez fight, knowing that’s a style nightmare for him? I say “yes.”

David: $750,000 is nearly twice as much as Brock Lesnar got paid (not including stuff not in the ifght contract) for his fight with Shane Carwin.


Angulo should stay far, far away from anyone who can move.

Which is why he probably wishes he had gotten to Cory Spinks before Cornelius Bundrage did.

Can you picture this:

K-9 Bundrage.

Perro Angulo.

Which Dog Goes To Heaven?

me: I honestly wouldn’t count Angulo out against Martinez. That sounds crazy. I wouldn’t pick him, mind you. But not count out.

All. All Dogs Go To Heaven.

David: Amazingly, I’m not going to disagree with you. Even thought you hate me.

Hear me out.

me: Screw you.

David: I saw Martinez go toe to toe with Archak TerMeliksetian on the non-televised undercard to Sergio Mora-Vernon Forrest 1. He can fight down to his level of opposition.

And remember, Pavlik WAS able to adjust and hit Martinez. If we’re going to admit that Angulo is slow, we also have to admit that he uses good timing to land punches against faster fighters.

me: But Archak is not to be counted out. His nickname is Shark Attack, Mac.

David: If we’re going to play Triangle Theory, Angulo took Shark Attack out in 1. Shark Attack’s next fight? A loss to Martinez in 7.

It doesn’t mean anything other than that it means nothing.

My point was that Sergio can get hit.

me: You just blew my mind.

David: And Angulo can hit him.

Shouldn’t we see Angulo-Cintron 2?

me: Can I say how much I loved Angulo refusing to stop punching Alcine when Alcine clinched him? Let me know if I can say that because I would like to say that.

David: And where is the video of Spinks-Bundrage? I want to see whether Spinks’ fall to the canvas at all approached the awesomeness of Cintron’s fall from the ring.

You can say that.

me: Cintron only wants rematches, really. He wants Angulo, Martinez, Cintron.

David: But not Margarito.

me: If I were him, I’d want Margarito.

David: We’ll see what Margarito does against Pacquiao.

I’d rather not. I’d rather see Pacquiao-Mayweather. But why open that wound again?

me: Mosley probably ended him, if the deloaded gloves didn’t. And he’s going to be like Arnold’s robot at the end of Terminator one after Pacquiao gets him, limping around with his guts out.

David: Antonio “Hands of Stone” Margarito against Kermit “Heart of Glass” Cintron.

Those are two 1980s figures right there: Roberto Duran and Blondie.

me: I was listening to Blondie the other day and forgot she rhymed “it was a gas” with “heart of glass.”

David: She still tours, or at least she still did when I was working music stores. Her name was now false advertising. But I digress.

We, sir, are going to Canada.

To see the big fight.

Excuse me, I got it wrong.

We are going to Montre-fuckin’-al.

To see the big fight.

me: I feel like the only Chad Dawson fan in America. I bet I’ll feel pretty lonely in Canada, although I like Jean Pascal, too.

David: (Does the FCC have jurisdiction over The Queensberry Rules?)

Here’s the question for you:

me: I didn’t answer the first one.

David: Is Pascal going to be that much better now that his shoulder’s better?

me: How long has the shoulder been bothering him?

David: I’d say dating back to the second Diaconu fight.

me: Oh. Yes. Well then. Pretty recently.

I thought you were implying it was earlier.

I don’t think his shoulder figures into things too much. He needs to get to Dawson’s chin. Speedwise, it’s possible, but sizewise and techniquewise, I’m not sure.

David: That depends on which Dawson we see.

He who stood in with Glen Johnson the first time or he who moved consistently against Johnson the second time.

me: (Pretty much everything can be made -wise. For instance, “David P. Greismanwise, I’m inclined to write a list of 10 items.”)

David: or David Letterman-wise

me: He says he’ll stand in. I don’t believe him. I hardly ever believe them when they say that.

David: I believe an interesting angle in this fight is what comes next for the winner.

Not Tavoris Cloud. Lucian Bute.

me: Bute-Pascal would be better than Kids In The Hall. I say that as a big Kids In The Hall fan.

David: Best five Canadians who weren’t playing hockey.

And Dawson-Bute would install Dawson as a Montreal semi-regular.

me: And Dawson-Bute… that hits the spot. It’s like the Dominos Crunchy Chocolate Lava Cake I had tonight.

David: So, I have Popeye’s chicken. And you call the pizza place and order dessert.

Well, we’re getting ahead of ourselves.

Dawson-Pascal is the main course.

It’s a deep bucket of fried chicken.

Dawson-Bute or Pascal-Bute would be the dessert.

With a cherry on top.

me: You know last time we did this, we spent some time talking Popeyes? Maybe we should stop here before we both get diabetescanceraids.

David: Agreed.

Back to Dawson-Pascal. Is this Dawson’s fight to lose?

me: Yes. It is his fight to lose. Is Marlon B. Wright reffing the fight? I’m still bitter about that.

David: That’d be like Arthur Mercante Jr. doing another Cotto fight.

me: Wait, now I’m conflicted. Not sure who I’m more bitter at.

David: Dawson out-lasted the old men of his division. There was a time when he was vying for acceptance in the division of Bernard Hopkins, Roy Jones Jr., Glen Johnson and Antonio Tarver.

He beat Tarver twice. He beat Johnson twice. And Jones and Hopkins have shown themselves to be fringe contenders, felled kings.

me: If Mercante had reffed Tarver-Jones II, he would have told Jones while he was on the ground, “suck it up, champ.”

David: And Robert Byrd would’ve pushed Jones back down.

me: And, please, let’s not forget: Dawson didn’t just beat old men. He beat Adamek. TOMASZ ADAMEK. That ain’t easy.

David: I believe Dawson deserves credit for his wins, especially the two wins over Johnson. And the Adamek victory is huge. It’s bigger, even, than Adamek is now, physically speaking.

I’m just glad he’s gotten past these standard-bearers and can face the other contenders and beltholders.

If only he could build up a viable audience, he’d be set.

me: We ‘Mericans hate anyone who boxes even a LITTLE these days. The only reason Mayweather’s popular at all is because of how much everyone hates him. Or, you know, most people. But name another technical boxer in YEARS who’s been popular here.

I’m flummoxed, for instance, by the degree to which people find Andre Ward boring.

David: Or that people compare Andre Ward to John Ruiz.

There’s a difference between fighting in the clinch and flat-out holding and hitting.

Ward seemed boring to them because 1) He completely dominated Allan Green and 2) Allan Green completely fizzled.

me: I watched that Green fight twice, looking for instances of him holding and hitting. I could count them on one hand.

David: Ward was brilliant. He didn’t hold so much as positions his arms and gloves to make it more difficult for Green to punch. Suffocating? Yes. Holding? No.

me: That’s a lost art. And, in its own way, beautiful.

David: If you’re Lucian Bute, do you wait out the winner of the Super Six, or do you go for the winner of Dawson-Pascal?

And if The Price is Right had Barker’s Beauties, will Montreal have Bute’s Beauts, eh?

me: If you’re Bute, you can’t wait for another year to fight someone top-notch, reputationwise. Of course, he could keep fighting nobody in Montreal for years and be rich, bitch.

David: No offense to Jesse Brinkley.

me: None. Loved his last performance.

David: But Bute-Brinkley is a fight for another set of writers in Montreal. Us? It’s Chad Dawson and Jean Pascal, Tim Starks and David P. Greisman. Loser buys Popeye’s and Domino’s.

About Tim Starks

Tim is the founder of The Queensberry Rules and co-founder of The Transnational Boxing Rankings Board (http://www.tbrb.org). He lives in Washington, D.C. He has written for the Guardian, Economist, New Republic, Chicago Tribune and more.